I have a Zoeller Aquanot II battery operated sump-pump. We had a aquanot battery that has since ran dry and no longer works. I called a local plumbing place that has the battery for $220. The sales man said that I could just use a marine deep cell battery from anywhere and that I didn't have to spend that much money. I then went to sears and found a Diehard Marine Deep Cycle/RV $79 Power Level 500 CCA Group Size 24M 27494 The guy at Sears said this should work fine. I came home connected it to my Zoeller Aquanot II charger and then the charger started making a grr noise about every 2 seconds and after waiting about 2 hours, all my lights are on on the charger indicating that it is charged. But when I try the sump-pump nothing happens. I have since gone online and tried to research my problem and the only thing I can find is that the battery should be a group 27 or 31( and another number that I have forgotten). Does anyone have any suggestions for me? I can take a picture if needed but it looks like there isn't a way to post it on here. Thank you so much and I look forward to your replies. Rob Neuzel I don't have an immediate answer for you but I can tell you post pictures. (This is a generic paragraph I use.) To post pictures you need to first upload the pictures to a photo hosting site such as photobucket.com or villagephotos.com. and then post the public URLs for the pictures (or album) here. More pictures are always better than fewer. Please have CLEAR pictures and have both close up pictures and ones from a far enough distance that we can see how the various parts are interconnected. Thanks. Let me try this: Sorry the images are so large. Not sure make them smaller except thumbnail view. The picture size is fine but for future use (and not just for the forum) try Image resizing, do it with PIXresizer. I use it all the time. Now for your problem, I see some bit of corrosion on the positive lugs of your wiring to the battery. For low voltage applications such as this you really need the connections to be as close to perfect as possible. Use a wire brush and if necessary some sandpaper to get those terminals shiny. Something else is that a marine battery is not the same as a deep cycle battery. A true deep cycle battery is made to supply a low-to-medium current for a long period of time and also to be able to be discharged to about 20% of the total charge available. The marine battery on the other hand is made to start an engine yet also be able to be discharged much more than an automobile battery, in other words it is a cross between an automobile starting and ignition battery and a true deep cycle battery. As a compromise it really doesn't do a good job on either service. Another thing is that a group 24 battery is not only physically smaller than a group 27 it also has a lesser capacity for the long haul, especially in deep cycle service so the person who told you the marine battery was the same as the original gave you bad information. Nonetheless, the battery you have should run the pump albeit not for as long as the correct battery. You may have a bad (although new) battery or it could be that you have a problem with the pump itself. If you have a multimeter try measuring the voltage at the pump switch with the pump switch in the off position and also with the switch in the on position. Measure also at the battery under the same conditions. If the voltage drops significantly at the switch when the pump should be running but not when measured at the battery it signifies a problem with the wiring. If it drops significantly at both the switch and the battery then it signifies a problem with the pump or motor. Furd, Thanks for the reply and thanks for the info about the images. I just went down and cleaned off the lugs and it is now working. I am still getting the rummm-rummm sound(I'm sure that is a bad discription ) When the pump just ran the rummm sound lasted the entire time the pump ran. When the pump stopped the rumm sound stopped and then started doing the every other second or so. Is that the charger constantly trying to charge the battery? What can I do to get the noise to stop? And will it ever? All my lights are on indicating that the battery is charged. Sounds like I did get bad info. Sears did have a bigger battery that was a M-3. Not sure what that means except it was $20 more. The guy said the one I bought would work just fine. I'm guessing it was a group 27. But I don't know that for sure, just a guess. Should I try and take the battery back to sears and get the m-3 battery. Would that make my rumm-rummm sound go away? Thank you for all your help. I really appriciate it. This is one of those cases where my wife said to spend th $220 and get the right battery and I said oh no, we shouldn't have to pay that much for this battery . Rob Since I have absolutely no idea of what your rummm-rummm sound is or even where it is coming from I have nothing more to offer. Sorry, maybe someone else will be able to help. Yea, I figured that wasn't a good discription but wasn't sure how else to discribe it. I have since determined that it is a vibration within the charger. Took the charger apart and make sure all screws/bolts were tightened down. Still get the vibration and not sure what exactly is causing it. Plan on calling Zoeller on Tuesday when they open back up. Thanks for all you help. Rob
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I have a Whirlpool Gas Dryer around 4-5 years old. Model # LGR4634EQ2 . We went to a vacation for two weeks and after we return the Dryer works but doesnot generate heat. So I am going through the some of the threads for exact same problem but I am even behind those who asked questions. I opened the dryer fine. Now I recognized the Ignitor, Solenoid and other parts. How should I start troubleshooting. ? What are instruments I need to troubleshoot where actually the problem resides.? I saw that in the thread it is mentioned that if the ignitor glows then the solenoid should be ok. What is the sign of a glowing ignitor? Should the ignitor be glowing always? In other words how should I start from? Any help will really be appreciated. Also pointing to any manuals online will also be helpful. Regards, S2kFixit I have a whirlpool Gas dryer model # LGR4634EQ2 . We went to a vacation for two weeks and now the dryer is not heating. From the other threads I noticed that either the ignitor, or solenoid might be the primary problem. Is this true? Or How should I start troubleshooting for the heating problem .? I understood the various parts like Ignitor, solenoid, thermostat, etc but identify the single part is malfunctioning? Any help will be highly appreciated. Regards, s2kfixit. Hello s2kfixit. Welcome to my Gas Appliances topic and the Do-It-Yourself Web Site. How should I start troubleshooting for the heating problem? First thing to check is if the gas is on. Both at the dryer and at the meter or propane tank or supply line from the tank. If there are other gas appliances in the home and those appliances work, the gas is on. If not, the gas is off. A two week period of non usage does not always indicate a part(s) failure. Refer to the above first. Next place to check is the venting systems exhaust hoods internal flapper. May be stuck closed for some reason. If the flapper is not able to open and close freely, correct the cause of that problem. If the above are checked and determined not to be the cause, open the burner inspection door at the bottom front of the machine, if so equipped with one. Turn the dryer on and note if the hot surface ignitor glows. If there is no front burner access door, remove the bottom back panel and turn the dryer on. Observe the hot surface ignitor. (HSI) The HSI should begin glowing when dryer is turned on and all the control panel selections are set correctly. Meaning not in the air fluff or no heat selections. Dryer help info: http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=159481 Use the reply button to add additional information or ask additional questions on this same appliance. Kindly do not post a new question. Using the reply button will automatically move or keep your question at the top of the forums list of questions. Regards Good Luck. Web Site Host, Forums Monitor, Gas Appliances Topic Moderator Multiple Forums Moderator. Natural Gas Appliance Diagnostics Technician. I changed my Vent ( Aluminium Semi flexible) as it was 3 years old. There is a small square to view the burner. Took that out to see if i Can see any light, but I don't see any light in that area. This leads to me that Ignitor is not glowing. What should be my next step now? Please advise. Regards, s2kfixit. Hello: s2kfixit Ignitor not glowing? If all the controls are set correctly, chances are the ignitor is defective. Gain access to it and replace the ignitor. Read this. Dryer help info: http://forum.doityourself.com/showthread.php?t=159481 Thanks very much Sharp Advise. But more questions and apologize if they are stupid questions as I you can tell I am a Newbie. 1) check Controls are set correctly? 2) determine if Ignitor is working ok or not? 3) check if Timer is ok? 4) Hot to determine if Solenoids is working ok or not? Thanks very much for your help. S2kFixit Hello: S2kFixit Controls are the selections on the front panel. Be sure they are set to dry and not air fluff, no heat, etc. When the dryer is running, look into the burner compartment. May have an access door on the front lower panel, a tiny viewing hole, etc. If no door or viewing hole exists, may have to remove a back lower sheet metal panel to view the burner compartment while dryer is running. Timers cannot be fixed. Only replaced but not until all other likely possible causes are determined not to be the cause. Replacing a timer that will not or does not resolve the problem is a waste of time and $. If the HSI (hot surface ignitor) does not glow, may be simply burned out. If a solenoid is defective, glow ignitor usually will glow but burner will not fire up. Must have both solenoids operational or ignitor will fail to glow. You should hear a click, than ignitor glows and than a second click which allows the burner to fire up. If not, solenoids defective. Whirlpool's Home Web Site: http://www.whirlpool.com Hello Sharp Advise, I changed the Ignitor but it still doesnot glow . I will change the solenoids tomorow and see if that fixes the problem. Also does this look like a connectivity issue. ? Thanks , S2kfixit Hello , I changed the Ignitor and Solenoids but still the dryer doesnot heat. Ignitor doesnot glow . More close diagnosis leads to me that I don't hear another click. First Click - After we press Start button starts the dryer ( turns motor on and gets the drum moving) There is no second click What can be another thing? How do we test the Timer? How do we test the Thermostat? How do we test the Continuity? We only have Sears Parts and Service in our area. If I take the Burner Assembly will they check what is defective? or what are other stores which can test and tell us what part is defective.? Regards, S2kFixIt
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What's a good ventless propane heater for a garage?
I have a pretty new home, with a two car UNHEATED garage. The garage gets very cold and my master bedroom and bathroom are above the garage. I am having problems with the pipes for my master bathroom freezing at night because it's getting so cold like -5 degrees F at my house. anyhow, I wanted to put some sorta of heater in the garage to 1.) keep the pipes warm on VERY cold nights and 2.) also make the garage warm so I can work in the garage, etc. I need something that is no hazadous to my health because I will be in the garage with all doors and windows closed for a couple hours at a time working on projects. I was thinking of going with one of those wall mounted ventless propane heaters and having a 100lb propane tank installed outside my garage. I was wondering a couple things about these heaters.. 1.) What is the best manufacturers to go with? 2.) I see they come in radiant heat and also flame heat models. I read that the radiant heat heats up people and objects in the room, and that the flame heat heats up the air in the room. I don't know which one is better to go with. I want something to heat up the entire garage pretty quickly. 3.) How many BTU's do you think I need for a 2 car garage. The measurements of the garage are 20' x 24' with I think a 9 foot ceiling. I would like to be able to heat the garage up to like 55-60 degrees F in like 10-15 minutes if possible. Any help would be very much appreciated, thanks! I would never install a ventless gas appliance. squale, I have to say that the use of ventless heaters won't get much support around here. A lot of folks who are connected with the heating industry take a very dim view of these types of heaters. In Canada and some parts of the US they are not allowed to be used because of the potential of poisoning by carbon monoxide. I know Minnesota doesn't allow them but I'm unsure of other states. How these things work is that under ideal conditions the flame burns with over 99% efficiency where the carbon monoxide that is emmited is within the allowable amount. The type of safety they use measures the amount of oxygen in the air and when the oxygen begins to be depleted they shut the heater off. In many peoples eyes this is thought to place to much empasis on people's safety with a single mechanical device. Here is a link to a thread about ventless tent heaters but they work the same as home ones. Another thing to consider besides safety is the fact that if this is a workshop, because these heaters also discharge a considerable amount of water vapor to the room you will be faced with rust on all your tools. My suggestion is to install a vented heater or if you do not want to put in a chimney, an electric heater of some type may do it for you. It would be a much wiser investment to insulate the ceiling and pipes and also the garage door, and make sure the bottom of the door has a good weather strip on it. If it's still freezing then think of adding a heat run from your furnace to the area but no return as this could be dangerous. okay thanks. Well the pipes unfroze and I get water again now.. Thank God! But yeah considering these ventless propane heaters, I think I would have to put a new propane tank (100 gallon) outside my garage wall to power one of these wall unit heaters. I too am a little suspicious about the amount of carbon dioxide they put out, my friend has one of these in his basement and when it runs it sort of smells too. I think it will just be too much of a pain to even install one of these and get another propane tank, etc. Right now I heat my house with a propane tank which is a 500 gallon underground. I don't think its' a good idea to tap off of that for a ventless heater in the garage, but I could be wrong. So then if you are talking about electric heaters, what type of heater would heat my whole garage (2 car) without needing it's own 220 volt line and raising my electric bill RIDICULOUSLY high? I think my whole garage is on a 15 amp breaker so I don't want to overload it if I can help it. I was even thinking maybe going with one of those Mr. Heater Big Buddy indoor propane heaters that are portable.. http://www.mrheater.com/productdetail.asp?id=784 What do you guys think of this thing? You can get a slim line vented heater for the garage. The Mr Heater is a ventless heater as well. These ventless heater should be outlawed everywhere! YOu also can tie into the same tank you have now underground. what is so bad about ventless heaters? they seem to be fine, I know many people that have them in their homes and they work good and they keep them running for hours at at time with no problems squale, What is so bad about ventless heaters? 1. Your family could die from carbon MONOXIDE, not dioxide poisoning. 2. Your family could get sick from carbon monoxide or a lack of oxygen. 3. Your family could develop alergies or sensitivities to chemicals by breathing the allowable levels of contaminates that ARE discharged. 4. You will be adding lots of moisture to the air that will make your windows sweat, could rot the structure and cause rust on your tools. The fact that these heaters are prohibited in Canada and a great many states should be a bit of a clue. Another thing that I don't understand is that even though their use is prohibited in a good many places they are still allowed to sell them in those states. Plus, the mfr's are under no obligation to tell you they are prohibited. We are really talking about a cost issue here. I ask you, what is wrong with laying out a little more money for a proper vented heater or the proper power to run a 240 volt heater? There are propane heaters available that only need a grill on the outside wall as opposed to a chimney. The moisture issue is a given. The more you run it the more moisture will condense on your tools. Dying or getting sick is remote, but considering that governments get the stats to make the decision to ban them you. Google search on ventless heater safety. This is what I think anyway but what do I know. Someone asked me if I was so smart then why ain't I rich? very good points there.. what is the SAFEST form of heating then to put in the garage.... electric? I have seen these big 240v electric heaters, but will these use LOTS of energy thus killing my energy bill every month? damn... I miss my pellet stove.. lol just out of curiosity, why don't I have that moisture problem you talk about with my normal home heating system. My house has baseboard hot water (3 zone), with a Well McLain Gold Series Propane Boiler. It is still burning propane, and still venting outside, but I don't have any moisture issues? also, I noticed on the back of my boiler, that the back metal cover is not on. It's just leaning up against the wall. The cover seems to have insulation connected to it. Should I put this cover back on or is it okay to leave off? I guess the prior owners might have had the boiler serviced or something before I moved in and never put the back cover on? Greg said it all there! Reson for your home not to have these problme that it's vented out side. The gas that been burned gives off vaper, CO, fumes, sometime ordors in the boiler stays in the heat exchanger/cell, and goes right out side up the flue pipe. Nothing is dumped into the home.. I would put this cover on.. Might of been left off by accident. Ventless heater, all of the of the burned byproducts is dumped right into the living space. okay concerning the cover that is off on the back of my boiler, I noticed that there is this metal big plate or soemthing that the cover goes over, and this metal is sorta rusted.. but the boiler is only 2.5 years old same as the house.. Not sure what you really got there.. Are you able to take a picture of it here for us to see? I can't really get a camera back there I don't think it's just the back metal panel to the WelMcClain Gold GV boiler.. is this a good boiler by the way?
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Is the 21iP everything that the 20P is and would buying it now be a wise move for future advancement? Can I program the 21iP through my office LAN? Ideally, it would report alarms to my PDA/Cell phone, however, my internet cable and my phone land line are not physically secure. Best would be an on-board wireless connection device. It's the same old story, no matter what you buy, it's obsolete in 6 months or maybe less. Edit: I guess the 21iP has been around for a while... http://forum.doityourself.com/search...=87query=21ip The Vista 21ip is a great unit. However, what most people do not realize is that the iP connection is proprietary to Honeywell and Alarmnet. You cannot recieve emails or access the keypad remotely without out paying a dealer for this service. With that being said, the panel does support uploading and downloading through the Compass software (which can be found for free), but it is not very DIY friendly. Good Luck I'm coming to realize that these products are primarily designed to get the customer to $IGN UP on a contract with the monitoring company. Any chance of using the panel as an informal personal alarm is only a sideline benefit. Certainly, I'd like to install a system, have it under my own control and fully debug it prior to having any CS call out the cops or the FD. Fortunately, I live in an area where I can afford informality, nonetheless, I'd like an alarm when that door opens in the middle of the night or smoke arises. A call to my PDA while we are out would be a bonus. For this, I might as well save the extra $100 and stay with the V20P, using the money for a dialer or some such simple product that will dial my cell phone with a zone alert. Maybe just order a pager. It would appear that there is an overlooked marketplace for folks such as myself who need a link from the alarm panel to the Blackberry. (Like getting an extra $9.95 cell on my Verizon account and wiring it in via USB.) Maybe in another five years? Basically, the alarm industry is surprisingly conservative (the cost and hassle of UL listing for this stuff reinforces this tendency), and thus they tend to take a while before embracing technology changes. The liability issues for the security alarm industry are huge, so they err on the side of control. I see that the Vista-ICM (Internet Connection Automation Module) was the cat's pajamas and it was just what I was looking for. Effective January 18, 2010, Honeywell has determined to obsolete the VistaICM product and will be unable to provide e-mail alert messaging functionality support for the VistaICM after January 31, 2010. We recognize that this may cause inconvenience and hope that you understand that this was done to minimize future product challenges. Unfortunately, Honeywell is forced to take this action in light of recent concerns regarding our third-party supplier's ability to continue to provide long-term support of the VistaICM units and email messaging. It's sad that job security and product security (minimize future product challenges) take such precedence! Also, strange reading between the lines in that paragraph. Honeywell isn't the only show in town for alarm panels and systems. Does anyone know of another company's product that will function with wireless and wired sensors AND communicate with my computer and cell phone PDA in a private, non-proprietary, but reliable manner? DMP maybe, but not a DIY panel. Needs to be purchased from a dealer. ELK, maybe with a software package. Alarm dealers entire business model is run off of RMR (recurring monthly revenue) and alarm dealers are the largest customers of the alarm manufacturing companies. The AD2USB looks handy for hooking up the desktop PC but it doesn't do anything for the cell phone PDA. I'll get this figured out yet! The raceway is in for the hardwired contacts and keypads and I'm just about ready to push the main order button after cleaning up the finer points. I'm still not sure about the V20 vs the V21iP. I come into this from 50 years in the electronics industry, but the alarm industry has its own language. I did the deal! Vista 21iP Internet Ready Wired Alarm System Control Panel Ultratech Alarm System Back-Up Battery 12 Volt 7AH RJ Block and Cord RJ31X Ademco Alpha Keypad 6160 (3) Wave2 EX Piezo Interior Sounder DUAL Technology Pet Immune Motion Sensor DT-7435 (2) System Sensor i3 2-Wire Photoelectric Smoke Detector with Therma 2W TB System Sensor 194 Degree Mechanical Heat Detector BK-5602 (3) Ademco Wireless Receiver 5881 ENH Ademco Wireless Smoke Detector 5808W3 Ademco Wireless Glassbreak Detector 5853 Already have 5816 (3) or I hate to bring up an old thread, but I'm considering the Vista 21ip and I wanted to know if you were ever able to get it to work over the internet without a monitoring service? Thanks Nope, it's still a proprietary interface. Is there any alarm system that will work over the internet without a monitoring fee? Thanks There is a new product that will offer user monitored services over the internet, it should be coming out this Summer. Here is an article on it: Print: Honeywell's Home Automation Touchscreen: Security Optional - CE Pro
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I have a 84 Circle J warmblood size trailer that has a too heavy ramp (I had back surgury and cant lift it) Any ideas on fixing it or replacing it? Does it have any counterbalance springs already or do you have to wrestle the full weight? the trailer has springs going from the trailer to the ramp, but it feels like you are lifting the whole weight of the ramp. does anybody have any ideas on fix this? I have some experience with trailers and ramps but have no clue what a 84 Circle J warmblood size trailer looks like. If you could post some pics on a free site like Photo Bucket and post a link we could take a look. The trailer looks like a normal 2-horse trailer-except it is taller and longer to fit in large horses. (like draft size) I think the ramp is extra heavy also because the big horses weigh more. It is only maybe a foot higher and longer then a reg trailer. anybody have any ideas? I can only imagine that the springs you are referring to somehow take some of the weight off the ramps. How they work is not possible to guess without seeing it. Post a pic and we might have a better idea. I would check into mounting a 12 volt winch above the door that would hook up to the ramp to lift it. life begins when the kids leave home and the dog dies Contact the mfgr. and see if they can help. Maybe it has the wrong springs. Or may be they can supply some helper springs. The winch would do the job also, you would have to run a wire from the truck or install a separate batt. RW car trailers have a spool above the door (like a garage door spring) and a cable on each side of the door for lift. not sure if you could use that with horses though. Could even conceivably go hydraulic, although it would take some engineering and $. Problem with any cable-type arrangement is that a lot of horses like to dance sideways while trying to load [been there, had them] and anything like that would be a hazard. Also horses sometimes come out pretty quick without much regard for what (or who) is in the way. Again, cables anywhere in the area could be hazardous. Weight is a major drawback of having a drop-ramp trailer. You can lose the weight by switching to a swing-door arrangement, but the trade-off there is horses who don't like the step up and prefer a walk-up loading. I got it fixed, had a welder put new springs on it and adjusted the height of the springs. I can actually lift it now!!! Thanks for all your suggestions. Glad it worked out and thanks for the feedback.
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I had a 40 gallon gas water heater to heat 4 sinks in a small office building. It was leaking, so I replaced it with a good deal Thermar Gas Tankless Water Heater. The pipes had to be changed to fit the new water heater. Now, the pilot light will not stay lit. I had a plumber look at it who said it would be better to replace the entire unit. According to the instruction manual, the coupler may be a problem, but it says contact Thermar. Since Thermar has gone out of business, as far as I can tell, I cannot do that. I'm in Columbus, Ohio and have not found a plumber who is familiar with Thermar Tankless and Thermar Tankless is seemingly quite different than the other tanklesses currently available. The four sinks are ADA approved and must be able to fit a wheelchair under the sink. Therefore, my guess is that the undersink water heaters are not the best choice. Obviously, I don't want to invest much MORE money into this project, but I do need hot water. What would be your suggestion? The water heater is in the basement; the sinks are on the first floor (two restrooms). The pipes are set for a tankless, and very little hot water capacity is needed. Thank you, LLLR111 Hello: LLLR111 Chances are very good the plumber is correct. Not good news granted, but if parts cannot be obtained there seems to be little choice but to replace the entire unit. Questions to you are, what is meant by good deal....??? Purchased the unit used from a dealer of used appliances? If so, contact them for service or repalcement with new unit....???? Private party sale? If private party sale, chances are that good deal is not so good for you... Can you get a refund? Get the unit fixed by the seller? With all the forseeable problems ahead, may be best to simply replace the unit with a new tankless or go back to a tank type unit. Another possible alternative is 2 seperate small electric hot water heaters under the sink(s) models. Installed in the bathroom(s) seperately under the sinks. Or one electric downstairs for both sinks. The resident plumbing professionals will have additional help, ideas and or suggestions. Check back several more times for those replies. Use the reply button to add any additional information or ask additional questions, etc. Using this method also moves the topic back up to the top of the list automatically. Web Site Host, Gas Appliances Topic Moderator Multiple Forums Moderator. Energy Conservation Consultant Natural Gas Appliance Diagnostics Technician. Personal Reminder: Buckle Up Drive Safely. The Life You Save, May Be Your Own. Have you considered using an electric tankless water heater There are very affordable models with excellent reliability and performance. My brother-in-law purchased a tankless water heater a few months ago. He says it works great, this is the one he has: Tankless Water Heater Titan SCR2 N-120 http://titanheater.com I'm thinking of getting one myself. Anyone have any comments Am I right in the following assumptions and calculations? 1 Btu raises the temperature of 1 lb water by 1є F 1 Btu = 1055 Watt seconds of electricity, or put the other way 1055 watt seconds = 1 Btu One manufacturer, Niagara Industries,( www.tanklesswaterheater.com ) offers a product rated at 10.8kw, and suggest 20 US gal. is sufficient for a bath. 10.8 kw = 10.24 Btu per second (10800/1055) 20 Gal. of water = 2.56 cu. ft. and weighs 160lb. A bathtub is about 4’ 6” long and 1’ 9” wide, (quite a conservative tub); giving an area of 7.875 sq. ft, therefore our water depth would be just less than 4”. Now, let’s look at heating our water. In winter the water inlet temperature could be 40єF. (Or lower) Body temperature 98.4єF…. say 100єF for ease of calculation Therefore we would need to raise the water temperature by 60єF, and this would only give us a bath that felt neither hot nor cold. (Ideal for the baby!) The number of Btu needed for the job = 160 X 60. (Weight of the water X rise in temperature) = 9,600 Btu Our heater mentioned above gives 10.24 Btu per second, Therefore it will take 9,600 /10.24 seconds to heat enough water, =937.5 seconds =15.625 minutes During this period the water will cool down unless your bathroom is at 100єF too! Conclusion: If you’re happy with 4” of bath water, at body temperature, your bathroom is kept at 100єF. all the equipment is 100% efficient, and you’re prepared to wait a quarter of an hour for it to fill, then this heater is for you! (Similar calculations for an 11.8kw model give a period of just over 14 minutes). If I'm wrong, I'd love to know where. Whatever happened to the good ole days where you put in a 50 or 60 gallon water heater.........and that was that. With increased R-value on tank heaters, has anyone figured what the percentage of loss or cost efficiency differences are in regards to tank to tankless? A good deal of gas 50 to 60 gallon water heaters have an energy guide rating of $145 to $175 per annum. With the average water heater these days around $300, how do the numbers equate to substantial savings? I would say the tankless setup would have to half the cost of operation of a tank water heater.......meaning $70 to $100 yearly operating costs to make a dent in the pocket...........and I am not even mentioning the considerable initial cost difference in the beginning......and the inability of common parts to make repairs on tank heaters to tankless. Such as the thread starter mentioned the good deal that now constitutes no availibility of parts. I would say the maker of that product shutting down was intentional.........therefore the lack of need to maintain a surplus of parts that will soon become defective over time. Honestly, ever heard of anyone making any ground when you have a product and the company is out of business? Nope. It is a business ploy to make the money quick, offer something that is staggering in less cost than the normal priced ones, and give it a few years till the buying curve starts to go down, and time to close shop, forever. I believe we are all a victim of good deals over time..........thinking that we bought something that has consumer confidence built in, only to find out that we are swiping credit cards for the exact same product, but of higher quality like we should of to begin with. Okay........now I'm rambling. Time for bed. Interesting calculation John. I cannot really see anything wrong with it although the one thing that comes to mind is that the definition of a BTU is as you state but when the water is at 39F (or something like that). You should require less energy to heat the water as it gets hotter due to the increased motion of the molecules and so I don't think you can apply the mathematics in a linear fashon as you've done. The only other thing is that with a tankless a very small quantity of water is heated at any period in time and so that rate of temp rise is probably a lot faster than in your calculation and so my guess would be based on my first assumtion that it would take less than your calculated time to fill 20 gallons at 100F. Tankless water heaters are not new products. Been around for many years. Problem has always been for the manufacture the service support needed and parts availability. In most cases the manufacturer does not have a marketing problem. Always a big box chain retailer willing to market such products. Manufacturer than likely to build it's service and part support base after the sale and may or may not do so quickly. Problem the above creates is consumers are unaware of the lack of parts and service availability at time of purchasing. Such is not discovered until service and parts are needed but no where to be found. No service and no parts are available or parts available but no trained and or qualified services person to perform the repairs on the unit. Which leaves the customer, long after the sale was made, with a non useable unit and no means to get hot water heater fixed. Thus not having hot water but rather IN hot water. Customer up a tree without a ladder. Savings? Where would the savings been than? None apply. Unit inoperable, no hot water and no one to fix the unit and or no parts available. Where is the savings? There isn't any. Saving fuel costs. Maybe some or slightly but not always so. Have to amortise cost savings over the expected service life of the unit to obtain the true savings costs. In operable units are plentyful in some areas for the reasons stated about. Where is the savings than and fuel cost should not be amortised over the non operational time periods. Basic question applies. Would you buy a new car without dealer agencies to do warranty services during the warranty period? Buy new vehicle without any manufacturers dealer repair service facilities? Same and like questions consumers should ask prior to purchases made of almost any other major applainces. Same questions asked in meetings with manufacturers at major utilities, large plumbing companies, parts suppliers, etc when asked to market manufacturers products. Where is the support to back up the sales? Wasn't any or not enough to support the potential and actual volume of product sales. Thus energy companies, gas or electric utilities, large plumbing companies, etc) do not sell tankless water heaters. At least not in this area. Large chain retailers do not have to provide after sales parts, service or support. They only sell the product line. Consumers after sale problem(s) is their problem and not the retailers problem. Buyer beware. Good 'ol days are still alive and doing well.... Tank type water heaters selling well from what I can tell from industry leaders. Tank water heaters will be the industry sales selling leaders for many years to come...long live the tanks....
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I just put the last coat of clear on my new handrail when I found out that in 2003 the code was changed and now the handrail ends have to return to the wall because people catch their clothing and whatever else on the open ends. I just planned on recutting the ends and return pieces at 45s but then I got to thinking that the code might require a curved return so there aren't any edges. Could someone clear this up for me. Thanks Generally the 45 degree returns suffice the code. The intent, as you said is to prevent hanging on the opened ends, which you will do away with installing the 45's. Cut the bottom one and the piece will fit the top. Same thing with the top one, as it will fit the bottom. That's a great idea to use the end cuts for the returns but unfortunately I already beveled the ends and as it is recutting it will make it shorter than it suppose to be. If I cut in any further it will be real short. I have a scrap piece from another handrail that I can use for return pieces. The ends as it is now stop just above the nose of the first and last tread. With the new cuts they will be 2 in from the treads. I might have to start from scratch. thanks Before you go and do alot of replacement, contact your local building authority for an interpretation. Some localities allow more than others, and yours may either allow them as you have them, or allow you to have them 2 short. Worth a shot. I'm getting ready to do the same project. How do you fasten the 45's? I'm familar with the standard bolt/screw method for straight pieces. Are the actual returns 45's or just the cuts (90 degree return to the wall)? I'm also considering the pre-fab rounded 90 returns, does anyone make cheap templates for standard profiles for aligning/drilling the holes for the fastners. Thanks I usually cut 45 degree returns at the proper length and swap them. The top one will fit the bottom, and the bottom one will fit the top. I glue them and drive a 2 1/2 15 gauge finish nail alternatively through each piece far enough from the edge to keep from splitting or running the nail throught the side. The glue will do the work, the nails just hold it until it does. Originally Posted by chandler I usually cut 45 degree returns at the proper length and swap them. The top one will fit the bottom, and the bottom one will fit the top. I glue them and drive a 2 1/2 15 gauge finish nail alternatively through each piece far enough from the edge to keep from splitting or running the nail throught the side. The glue will do the work, the nails just hold it until it does. Ditto but I've added flat 90deg brackets on the underside.. doesn't hurt. Also, regarding the overall length... depends if your city inspector is the type who breaks out the tape, or the type that sees that you know what your doing and just looks for big time messups.
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Hi there. Been reading the boards for awhile now getting some great information on other household projects. I have a new question that I was unable to find an answer to and thought I'd see if anyone could give me a hand. I'd like to replace my current over head garage door with side-hinged carriage style doors like the one in the picture at the link below. http://www.amourelle.co.uk/images/in.../barndoor8.jpg A friend of mine that has a done a fair amount of building (decks, lofts, etc) believes we could build and mount something like this ourselves but I have been unable to find any plans for a door of this type. Could anyone point me to a place where I might be able to find building plans? Has anyone had experience with such a door that they could offer any tips? It's a single car garage (not sure of the dimensions of the door off hand) with a wood and brick exterior. The brick is primarily just facing and the mechanical inspector I had out when I bought the house said they were not needed structurally. Look forward to any advice you could send my way. Why not measure the doors in the picture and adjust for your opening? Ah, sorry. I realize now I wasn't clear. The link I posted was not to a picture I had taken myself, but rather of a decent picture I found on the web of what I want. Consequently, I don't have access to the door in the picture in order to measure it. We could probably develop our own plan if needed, but I figured it would be more reliable if we followed some existing guidelines. Thanks I have built some like that, I just made the Z-brace frames and put the finish product on it....I didn't hinge mine however, lot of weight on the jamb and will eventually sag....I mounted mine on an overhead dolly and track setup....door slides sideways in the track...worked great. Are you wanting the swing out door just for the look? Or are you wanting to have the function of swinging doors? Checking because if you are looking for the authentic old style of the swing out doors there are places that customize that look while still having the convenience of the overhead doors and you hardly know they aren't swing outs till you see them move. Try www.montanarustics.com for some custom door ideas. . .Just a thought. Good luck! Thanks for your responses. I was planning on the side hinged doors for a couple of reasons. One is definitely for the look. The other is that when the garage was built they didn't seem to plan things out well. The tracks for the current garage door do not go all the way down to the floor. About a foot off the ground the track ends at concrete blocks. This means that the garage door stops at the end of the track and does not close all the way. The previous owners did not do anything to correct the problem and the garage door has deteriorated to the point where it needs to be replaced. Using side hinged doors would allow me to place them just in front of these concrete blocks and still have a solid seal. Plus, they didn't look terribly difficult to build so I thought it would be possible to do myseld. If no one is aware of a place that has plans, I'll go with the original idea of creating my own and reinforce the jambs to handle the weight. Thanks very much.
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Hi all. I had this walkway done a few years back (over 5 years easy), and the contractor said to coat it with TIAH, which was just fine until a few years ago when i bought a jukebox and decided to roll it up to the front door. Yep, you guessed it, nice tracks in the sealant coating. So I stripped it and redid it and (there is a 50 cent word for this I know) it keeps blushing out in a whitish haze. I have tried stripping it and resealing it twice (the last 2 years) and keeps doing this. I currently have it stripped again and there still seems to be some of the original coat of sealant on it. I don't know if this is the cause or not. I thin tried a bit of fine sandpaper and this seems to have no effect. Although I was chickening out because some colorant was coming off with the water I was using to sand with, and I was worried it wold ruin the look. Even now if it gets rained on it looks really nice, but want to know what I might be doing wrong to not get a good refinish job. I strip it with orange-based strippers and a pressure washer. Maybe I need to strip it differently, or use some other sealer? I am planning on waiting to reseal also when we get a dry spell so I know moisture in the concrete isn't the problem. Gilly It sounds like moisture in the concrete IS the problem. You may need to switch to a different, more breathable sealer, or wait longer after stripping to reseal. TScarborough is right about the moisture. When sealer whitens, it means moisture is either trapped under the sealer, or that the sealer is delaminating. A quick fix is to spray a heavy coat of xylol (xylene) on it and let it evaporate. This reconstitutes the acrylic solids of the sealer. Usually, after the xylol evaporates, the whitening is gone. If spraying alone doesn't do it however, you may need to scrub the xylol in with a natural bristled acid brush. Make sure you use natural bristle because xylol wil melt a plastic bristled one. After that, if you intend to reseal, make sure the slab is COMPLETELY dry. Not just looks dry, or feels dry, or seems dry. Let it dry for a MINIMUM of 24 hours before sealing. When you seal, make certain to put the material on as thin as possible, with no puddling. One coat should be sufficient. Putting too high a build of sealer on is worse than not putting enough on. Good luck. Pecos Not rinsing off all the citrus stripper could leave residues that could be part of the problem. The problem with surface sealers on concrete is that if water vapor or moisture or excess moisture penetrates the pores in sealer while drying it will turn white. Even if it is a hot dry day when sealer is applied, humidity can be a problem. Heat can also be a problem, especially if temperature is near 90 or above. If topical sealers are used, it's best to do so early in the day right after the dew dries. Pecos There is a slight white film even after stripping when the concrete is dry. If it rains a little it looks fine. Is this a problem? For applying, is brushing the best, or a roller, or tank spraying? I'd like to get the last of the sealant off, would the Xylol and a rag work? It's really ON there. I think it's from the original coat. Everything was fine until I damaged it with that jukebox (heavy and has metal casters....OOPS!!!) Gilly Xylene on a rag will get some more of the old sealer off, but may not be completely necessary. If you just spray the xylene on and scrub it with the acid brush, it should clear up what's on there now. Then, just use a roller to put on another coat, or spray it on if you can. I prefer the roller though. We also add HC Shark Grip (Sherwin-Williams paint stores) to our sealer to make it more slip resistant. What Twelvepole said about the citrus stripper is right on. If you don't get it all off, it will keep your new sealer from setting up. It will remain tacky for a LONG time. Good luck! Pecos I do have a whitish residue after cleaning, sort of the same color as the colagulated (sp?) sealant that the stripper did remove. I dried water and a small wire brush and it didn't take off the stuff on the colored concrete, although the brush did work nice getting it out of the grooves between the colored sections. I'll try the Xylene on it. I don't think another session of citrus stripper will do much good. Another thought I had is where I work they have one of these floor scrubbing machines they'd probably let me borrow for a night (heavy machine with a rotating disc with bristles on it for cleaning a mechanics shop floor). Anyone advise one way or another on the TIAH sealer? PS nothing seems tacky right now. Gilly I had the chance to buy some Xylol and tried a few areas and it did make those areas look like new. I used a small wire brush to scrub it and an old rag. I will try just coating it and letting it evaporate to see if the results are the same. Any comments on the TIAH sealer? I have enough left to do it again but I sure would hate to have to strip this again any time soon! Gilly Tiah is a good sealer, you should use it. I agree that TIAH should be fine. You just need to apply it correctly. That is: on a THOROUGHLY dry slab (24 hours minimum) and not too thickly. Roll it on as thin as possible and do not leave any puddles. Thought I should to a wrap-up on this thread. I did scrub it down with Xylol (was expensive to do as i used about 4 cans of it! Also used a wire brush scrubber we found at a big box store which attaches to a shop broom handle, screws on to the handle) and let it sit for a week, We had a rare dry week here in S Wisconsin so lucked out on weather. Then did one last wipe down with Xylol (less than 1 can to do whole walk, we just used rags). Wanted to spray it, but found sprayer i bought special (cheap) to do this 1 job would only squirt, no spray. Bummer. Thinking fast, my wife grabbed a couple brushes and we both worked at squirting then brushing the TIAH on the concrete. One thing we did different, besides trying to get the concrete as DRY as possible is to do it in the late evening to keep the sun from drying the sealer too fast, we wanted it to be gradual not in 10 minutes like it was taking in the sun. It's been on for around 2 weeks and looking very good. When it blushed before (twice), we could see it blushing in about an hour or two, so we think this problem is licked. Gilly
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I just had a guy from Enbridge in here because the water coming out of the hot water taps is not hot. It never has been. He is the 3rd guy to come out for the same problem. I'm glad I got this guy, because he actually explained to me what the problem is. It's this thing called a 'Mixing Valve' which is a burgundy knob with temperature markings connected to the pipes above the water heater. Apparently, these things are being put into homes everywhere without the owners requesting them or even knowing what they are. A mixing valve prevents the temperature reaching your taps from exceeding 120 F, which is somewhere around 40-50 C - warm, not hot. My back is completely shot from working on this house and I need hot water, but it took until just a few minutes ago to discover why I could never get any. I insulated the pipes, I turned the temperature up all the way inside the water heater, nothing made any difference. So my question is, if I remove the mixing valve, do I require any special skills to cap something, or solder something in place, or add a section of pipe or anything? Or can I just remove it? I have very basic plumbing skills. I can solder pipe under ideal conditions. There is one screw holding the valve in place. If I unscrew it, what would happen? I am assuming that removing it would then create a new problem which I would have to solve. 100_2033 by noahbody on Zooomr I know it is dumb to ask, but have you turned the valve to a hotter position? Are all your shower/tub control valves temperature compensated or scald proof? You can't turn the valve without unscrewing it. There are 2 temperature markings on it: 49C and 32C. I don't see how you can tell which temperature it is currently set to. It might already be at 49C. To the best of my knowledge, there are no anti-scald or child-proof temperature dials or locks anywhere else in the house. I have even torn down some walls and have not found anything like this behind any bathroom or kitchen walls which I have torn down, at least not yet. Get this: 4 plumbers have been in here, if you include the guy from Enbridge. The first one replaced an element, which had no impact on the water temperature. The 2nd one didn't have any suggestions regarding the water temperature. The 3rd one suggested that I buy a new water heater, so he didn't really understand the problem. I thank the Enbridge guy for finally explaining why I can't get hot water, but he refused to touch the mixing valve and he refused to consider removing it. He said it's not his problem because it's not part of the rental. I'm pretty sure they were both installed at the same time by the same person, but whatever. So with that kind of help, I really may have to do it myself. Good thing this website is here... I unscrewed the knob to see why it wouldn't turn when I tried to adjust the temperature. I still can't twist what's underneath it, but then, I don't have the correct size socket wrench. Here's some more pictures. Any suggestions on adjust the temperature? I just want to see if I can adjust it first before making plans to completely remove the thing. First, the tempering valve may well be required by code, so you do not want to mess with that. It is a safety item, to prevent scalding. Now, check your temps and your numbers. 120є is too hot to shower in. (see chart below). You would mix a little cold in with that. If you cannot get water at about 105 to 110, then maybe the tempering valve needs to be adjusted. TIME / TEMPERATURE RELATIONSHIPS IN SCALDS 125° F 1 1/2 to 2 minutes 130° F About 30 seconds 135° F About 10 seconds 140° F Less than 5 seconds 145° F Less than 3 seconds 150° F About 1 1/2 seconds 155° F About 1 second Table courtesy of Shriners Burn Institute I appreciate your advice. The issue here is that the temperature is not even hot. It is lukewarm. I have to go to a public gym to take a hot shower. This is not right. I own this house, and I have the right to take a hot shower in my own home. I am trying to determine adjust this mixing valve. I have brought in 4 plumbers and none of them could/would help. If I cannot find somebody to help me, I will have to try to remove it myself. I'm not that old, but I was around before they started installing these mixing valves in peoples' homes. You could take a hot shower and wash dishes in hot water back in those days. Now, there is a law being passed to prevent people from ever taking any kind of risk at all. I don't require this mixing valve if it is going to only give me lukewarm water. The water is just as warm as in the swimming pool at the gym. If you can scald yourself at 120F, as it says in your advice, then I'm obviously not getting 120F. I tried turning it with all my strength, but it didn't move. So I removed the screw holding it in place. What was underneath is in the most recent photo, below. I don't know what to do to the part which is underneath - it doesn't want to turn either. So if somebody can tell me adjust the temperature. I don't know if this will help but here is a link to the manufacturers website. Powers: LM490/LM490-10 Series | HydroGuard Series LM490 Thermostatic Tempering Valves for Hot Water Heater Multiple Lavatory Installations Over the course of time all tempering valves or anti scald valves seem to go bad and If you have well water, the guts inside the valve can get plugged up with crud and mineral deposits. That unit has unions on it so try shutting off the water, open up the hot and cold handles on a faucet to remove the pressure from the system, loosen the unions and remove the unit to inspect it. If the inside of the unit if filled with crud or mineral deposits. If it does, let it soak for a day in a container of white vinegar and see if that disolves any of the crap inside it. If it looks too bad you might think about swapping it out for a new one. I have well water and have had the pleasure of changing several tempering valves (Watts brand) in my house. I finally gave up and removed the valve and cut in a copper tee on the cold and hot water pipes and used a gate valve installed between the 2 tees to manually temper the water. Originally Posted by lightsout06810 Over the course of time all tempering valves or anti scald valves seem to go bad and If you have well water, the guts inside the valve can get plugged up with crud and mineral deposits... Thanks for this reminder of why if something is working as designed, don't try to fix it. Thanks to the 'code' and these mixing valves, there are probably tens of thousands of people wondering why their hot water never gets hot anymore. Some of them are probably going crazy because even when they call a repairman or plumber, he doesn't diagnose the problem correctly and nothing gets solved. Or he refuses to work on the mixing valve or remove it and put things back the way they were originally. I get water from the city. I assume it comes from the lake. No matter, your explanation of what might be happening is very helpful and I have decided to remove the valve and reconnect the pipes the way they would go if there was no mixing valve. Even if I have to pay double to get it done. One of the most common complaints about water heater is not enough hot water. You see that all the time on this forum. Unfortunately, people get all kinds of advice on this, most of it bad in my opinion. Not enough hot water can have quite a number of causes, and really requires careful service by an experienced repairman to diagnose the actual cause. Of course, it's a lot easier to diagnose the wrong cause of this problem, which is what people very often get. Local repairmen ought to know about a code requirement that requires this kind of tempering valve and be on the lookout for it. They may not be able to remove it, but they should at least tell the home moaner about it. Unfortunately, this sounds like just another layer of nannystateism by elected officials that have too much time on their hands. If people want that in their homes, that's fine with me. But I certainly wouldn't want the oily hands of politicians requiring that to be installed in my home. Seattle Pioneer Originally Posted by SeattlePioneer Unfortunately, people get all kinds of advice on this, most of it bad in my opinion. Not enough hot water can have quite a number of causes, and really requires careful service by an experienced repairman to diagnose the actual cause. ... Local repairmen ought to know about a code requirement that requires this kind of tempering valve and be on the lookout for it. They may not be able to remove it, but they should at least tell the home moaner about it. Seattle Pioneer I've had 4 plumbers/repairmen in here and only one of them bothered to indicate the mixing valve might be causing the problem. The other ones were all over the map - buy a brand new water heater, replace the elements... I know next to nothing about plumbing and I have no idea if the mixing valve really is causing the problem. However, since the elements have been replaced and 3 Enbridge repairmen have found nothing else wrong with the water heater, and I have insulated the pipes, and when I touch the hot water pipe at the point where it comes out of the water heater, it is very very hot. When I touch the 'hot' pipe after it comes out of the mixing valve, it is only room temperature. So it appears that the mixing valve might be causing the problem. Out of the 4 guys who have come to my house so far to look at this problem, I'm not getting a great deal of help. The best advice I've received has been in this forum. I'm going to remove the mixing valve, clean it like lightsout06810 suggested, and put it back. If this does not make a difference, I'm going to remove it permanently and reconnect the pipes. If this does not solve the problem, then I'll buy a brand new water heater and have it installed by a professional. If that doesn't solve the problem, then I really won't know what to do. I am very suspicious of this mixing valve. This is a new part of the building code. It's so new that apparently many plumbers have never heard of it and are unfamiliar with them. 3/4 of them, in my experience, wouldn't even think to suggest it as being the cause of the problem. I agree with your comment on the nanny state. I never asked for this problem. I have enough things to deal with already. The government is not helping by making things more complicated than they have to be. I understand that there needs to be a building code and 9 times out of 10 the rules are there for good reason. But when the code forces this product on me, a product which deteriorates to the point of being useless after a short period of time; forcing me to waste days trying to figure out what is wrong and then having my time wasted further by repairmen who I need help from, and they can't or won't help, this is one part of the code I can do without. It would probably pay to purchase a 3/4 nipple the length of the opening to the back of the nuts and remove the valve and replace it with the nipple for testing purposes. At least you will know if it is the valve or not. I wouldn't clean it. I would replace it with a working model. Originally Posted by chandler It would probably pay to purchase a 3/4 nipple the length of the opening to the back of the nuts and remove the valve and replace it with the nipple for testing purposes. At least you will know if it is the valve or not. I wouldn't clean it. I would replace it with a working model. Thanks for the suggestion. Thermostatic mixing valves have been around for decades, it might just be this particular model is problematic. I think I would take it apart while still plumbed in place to see if I could clean it, and then try it. You may have to remove it from the piping in order to take it apart. At least you have unions and don't have to cut and re-solder pipe. If you get real ambitious and want to try another brand of valve then I would cut the piping back farther than absolutely necessary and install shut off valves on the three pipes if they don't already have valves. I might also install a bypass valve to allow continued hot water service when working on the mixing valve. If you do eliminate the mixing valve (or use a bypass) remember that you can be seriously burned by the hot water. Originally Posted by chandler It would probably pay to purchase a 3/4 nipple the length of the opening to the back of the nuts and remove the valve and replace it with the nipple for testing purposes. At least you will know if it is the valve or not. I wouldn't clean it. I would replace it with a working model. So would I be using a T shaped 3/4 nipple? You're saying to replace the valve with something shaped just like it to test for temperature. So I should go look for something with the same size threads and everything. I could replace it permanently - I have some extra 3/4 copper pipe here. I would get the proper joints and I would solder it in place. But if I do this, I'm not going to want to take it apart again to install a new valve. Is this all you have to do to replace the valve? Reconnect everything the way it was, except now with a T-shaped piece of copper instead of the valve? Or is it more complicated than that? Reconnect everything the way it was, except now with a T-shaped piece of copper instead of the valve? Or is it more complicated than that? No, you don't re-connect all THREE pipes, just the one from the water heater outlet and the hot water supply to the house would be connected. The third pipe, which is cold water, would be capped. Again I warn you that elimination of the mixing valve could set up a very dangerous situation in people being scalded by the hot water. This is especially true if the occupants of the house have gotten used to only getting warm water. I don't have a mixing valve in my home and I do have the water heater thermostat set fairly high. Since I live alone AND I am well aware that very hot water can come from my faucets it isn't a big deal for me. Still, I put up prominent labels above my faucets that read: Caution, water may be very hot. Originally Posted by furd No, you don't re-connect all THREE pipes, just the one from the water heater outlet and the hot water supply to the house would be connected. The third pipe, which is cold water, would be capped. Again I warn you that elimination of the mixing valve could set up a very dangerous situation in people being scalded by the hot water. This is especially true if the occupants of the house have gotten used to only getting warm water. I don't have a mixing valve in my home and I do have the water heater thermostat set fairly high. Since I live alone AND I am well aware that very hot water can come from my faucets it isn't a big deal for me. Still, I put up prominent labels above my faucets that read: Caution, water may be very hot. There's nobody else here. It's just me. And I grew up in homes without mixing valves. You learn manage it when you are a little kid. You test the temperature with your wrist first. If it's too hot, you add some cold or use less hot. I don't need this valve to keep me safe. I know mix hot and cold manually. I've never had a problem with it. So I will attempt to connect the hot water coming out of the tank to the mixed hot/cold pipe and just cover the cold pipe up with something and not turn it on when testing. I assume I'm going to have to solder this test hot water pipe anyways, so why don't I just solder everything in place the way it should be without the mixing valve? Otherwise I would be soldering the hot water pipe, testing it, - being unable to use cold water to mix it with - and unsoldering it again. It just seems like it would be less work to connect the cold water pipe AND the hot water pipe to the mixed hot/cold pipe. I mean just connect it all now, one time. Then I would be finished. Well, you could solder in some unions far enough away from the present mixing valves that would allow you to just do the soldering once on the main lines and then you could experiment with a straight line or a line with a teed in connection for the cold water. This would also give you flexibility to try other mixing valves if you ever wanted. Myself, I would probably just use a pair of repair couplings (sweat couplings without the internal stop) and solder in a straight piece of pipe. I'd solder a cap on the cold water line and that would be the end. If the water was way too hot I would simply lower the thermostats on the water heater. Trying to use a manual valve at the source to blend in some cold for use at the sink or shower is an exercise in futility since the temperature will wander all over the place depending on flow rate and the temperature of the cold water. Keep things simple and just adjust the temperature at the point of use as you have done all your life. One more thing. If the mixing valve is required by local codes then you would most likely have to have it in place and working if you ever decided to sell your home. Something to keep in mind. I have replaced the mixing valve with copper pipe. The pipe going out of the hot water tank goes directly to the hot water pipe which is distributed throughout the house, without going through a mixing valve. The cold pipe which used to connect to the mixing valve is now capped. All cold water now goes directly to the cold water line which is distributed throughout the house - no cold water gets mixed with hot except at a faucet now. I tested it for 5 minutes, and it appears that so far, there are no leaks on the sections of pipe I worked on. Unfortunately, a leak has sprung further along on the hot water pipe - an elbow joint seems to have been twisted while I was working in cramped conditions on the section above the hot water tank, and there are now 4 streams of water shooting out of that joint. I have had to turn the water off and will replace the joint tomorrow. Hopefully that will be the the final chapter for this specific problem. Now, the water temperature coming out of the hot water faucets is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for. The water is really hot! Not hot enough to burn yourself, but it will probably kill more bacteria, and it will make for more comfortable showers. I would like to thank those who contributed to this thread. Thanks for all the valuable advice. The manufacturer of the mixing valve, Powers/Watts, sent me an email this afternoon in response to an email I sent them, asking for technical support. I was wondering why on their website they were showing a completely different model from the one I have, so their instructions weren't making any sense. See below. @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin: .5in; mso-footer-margin: .5in; mso-paper-source: 0; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; mso-style-parent: ; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; mso-style-parent: ; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; mso-style-parent: ; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } A:visited { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; text-underline: single } P.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman } LI.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman } DIV.MsoAutoSig { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: Times New Roman; mso-pagination: widow-orphan; mso-fareast-font-family: Times New Roman } SPAN.EmailStyle18 { COLOR: navy; mso-style-type: personal-reply; mso-ansi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-hansi-font-family: Arial; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } The e490 valve is discontinued and was replaced by LM490. I have attached the installation instructions. Yes, valve performance will deteriorate over time due to both wearing of parts and build-up of dirt, lime, and scale. Replacement parts are no longer offered for the e490 valve. If you are unable to adjust or adjustment doesn't not fix hot water supply problem you can replace with the LM490 valve. Powers Watts was also kind enough to send me the instructions for the now obsolete e490. At the bottom of the page, it has this disturbing message... CALIFORNIA PROPOSITION 65 WARNING WARNING: This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. So this product has not only been preventing me from having the use of hot water, it may also have been giving me cancer. So I'm going to go out and buy another one? Which will itself have to be replaced in a few years? No thanks. So if you have one of these valves installed in your house, you can't just leave it there and forget about it. You have to maintain it. Or you have to replace it every few years. For most people, this means calling a plumber - or maybe several plumbers until you manage to find one who works with these things - and dropping a couple of hundred bucks for a product which most of us don't actually need - children can regulate water temperature after their parents show them how. I had a similar problem and I have Honeywell series AM mixing valves. I believe most of these valve are adjusted the same way. After unscrewing the retaining screw, back off the valve knob partially and turn in the direction that the arrow shows to make it hotter (usually counterclockwise). You will find that as you back off the knob, it will go from inability to turn it to modest resistance to no resistance at all. If you get to no resistance, you have backed it off too far and advance it a little until it grabs. I suggest adjusting by no more than 15 or 20 degrees rotation (not degrees temperature) at a time. Watch the thermometer and readjust as needed. Good luck I am glad I don't live where those are required. Glad you got it figured out. I am glad I don't live where those are required. Are you sure you don't? Rules and regulations within codes change all the time and there rarely is any requirement to send an individual notice to every homeowner in the jurisdiction. Some jurisdictions DO make a homeowner liable to bring certain safety features up to current code when selling the house and this could easily be considered such a safety feature. everything in Ca. causes all kinds of problems. it does not cause those problems everywhere but soon everyone will be so paranoid plumbing is gonna cost a fortune to install and repair. it is not that expensive at this time to give you a hint on what kind of pricing i am talking about. teh new faucets that we are able to install in Ca. are big and bulky and start around $200 or you can go with the regular size and nice looking faucets for around $700 Originally Posted by furd Are you sure you don't? Rules and regulations within codes change all the time and there rarely is any requirement to send an individual notice to every homeowner in the jurisdiction. Some jurisdictions DO make a homeowner liable to bring certain safety features up to current code when selling the house and this could easily be considered such a safety feature. I am sure. So far here we are still allowed to think and do for ourselves, at least when it comes to temp. regulators on our hot water. Nursing homes or course have to have them. The REASON FOR REQUIRING THERMOSTATIC MIXING VALVES is to prevent legionaires disease, which is a potentially deadly infection caused by the legionella bacterium. This bacteria loves to reproduce in water at about 120 degree temperatures. (Where an unprotected water heater is usually set. Welcome To Cash Acme The idea is to turn the water heater up to 140 degrees which kills the bacteria. (actually about 134 to 137 kills them. The problem is that these temperatures are too hot for people to shower or bathe in. Thus the need for the tempering valve, to TEMPER it back down to 120 into the pipes. Some people have a tee off before the mixing valve to run 140 degree water to dishwashers and washing machines, but all taps should be after the valve unless you are a lab or for food processing machine washdown, which is usually even hotter than 140. Sometimes they clog with lime scale. I would plumb in a bypass that allows you to temporarily take it out of service to delime it (vinegar or CLR) but while you are doing that be aware of the scalding danger. You could turn your heater down to 120 for the day that it will take to flush out the valve, but remember to turn it back up when you're done. You could make it a part of your annual maintenance routine, and delime it out while you are also manually draining sediment from your water tank (to help it last longer). You are doing that occasionally aren't you? Many manufacturers suggest every three months turning off the power to the heater and turning off the cold supply. Then draining about a quarter of a tank through the bottom drain, through a hose to a floor drain. Then turn the cold supply back on and refill the tank BEFORE turning the power back on or you will blow a top element. This procedure drains off some of the sediment that eventually will fill a tank above the bottom element and perhaps be the cause of your original problem. (NOT THE MIXING VALVE AT ALL) Sometimes when the sediment has built up to above the lower element, that element will fry, so you are now only heating with one element. You will get hot (or warm) for awhile, then it will get colder, and if you turn the temp up you might get is back up to lukewarm for awhile before it gets cold again. That is a sure sign that your tank is filled above the bottom element, It can be rehabilitated at about half the price of a new tank. You might get a few more years out of it by removing some of the sediment and replacing the element. Look up DELIMING in the Yellow pages. It used to be a stinky operation with chemical etc., but most operators do it with distilled water jets though a pressure wand, inserted through the drain hole at the bottom of the tank. They blow off the accumulated lime scale and drain it out, then usually replace the lower element. About $200 CDN with the element. Or you can go to the dealer and buy a new one, for at least $400 (40 gal) by the time you pay tax and buy all the little incidentals like a NEW THERMOSTATIC MIXING VALVE. Of course, I just noticed you are in Toronto. I never had much of a lime problem when I lived there, not like here in Kitchener, where you can almost watch it form. Still the valves can also clog with sediment. Plumber's should run water through any upstream piping before putting the valve in service, but time is money and it doesn't ALWAYS get done. The TEMPERING VALVES I have seen HAVE SEDIMENT SCREENS in the incoming hot and cold unions which may need to be cleaned out from time to time. Solder pieces, pieces of copper from undeburred pipe, sand, silt, rust etc, can all be introduced into your water system, and clog things like tempering valves. Your problem may be as simple as a clogged sediment screen on the hot side, of the tempering valve. Also check upstream of the tempering valve for a shutoff between it and the heater. Maybe this is not open all the way causing throttling of the hot line. Some plumbers in deluxe installations will install dial thermometers before and after, or at least after the mixing valve to check the temperature. This should really be done but isn't done enough. http://www.watts.com/pdf/1915905.pdf Here is a link to a pdf from Watts which is actually the same company as Powers (your pictured valve). There is a trouble shooting page. Hi wolf6656. Thanks for going to the trouble to list all this information. However, the problem has already been solved by removing the mixing valve and reconnecting the pipes the way they should go in the first place. Now the water is hot and there is nothing attached to the pipes which may prevent hot water from reaching the taps in the house; now, or in the future. By removing one level of unnecessary complexity, the problem is gone and will not return. There is no need to install a replacement valve, or pay hundreds of dollars to fix something or install something else, or worry about the problem coming back in the future and having to waste time diagnosing it, working on it or having somebody come in here and fix the problem partially, or not at all. There were no filters or screens on the valve which I removed. I did clean it by soaking it in vinegar for a few days but did not see any sediment or dirt in the valve when I removed it. By the time it was clean, I had already soldered the pipes back together and was very happy with having hot water in this house for the first time. I had no interest in putting back this valve, which I don't actually require. I am comfortable adjusting the temperature of any water I might use manually. I have been doing this for my entire life. I don't need a device to do it for me and prevent me from choosing the temperature I want/need while also introducing a level of complexity that was, to be perfectly honest, creating more problems than it was solving. I'm never going to install another valve in this house. If it is required by the code, and I am forced to install one, I'll remove it as soon as it is inspected. When I bought this house, nothing met the code. Nothing at all. I wasn't able to sue anybody or force the previous owner to fix anything. He didn't care and neither did the government. When I'm done bringing things up to standard or beyond, this house will be vastly safer and more efficient than it was before. But I refuse to use one of these valves because it didn't help me in any way - it made things worse, not better. As for the Legionnaire's Disease, that's interesting and thanks for sharing that. I didn't know about it. But anyways, both elements on the water heater are set at the halfway point between 150 and 125 F; or 137.5 (59C), so that should kill them. I set them at that temperature. The manufacturer's settings were below that. And it's a rental. Like I mentioned before, Enbridge has been out here several times and they left the temperature well below that. I only raised it after realizing none of them had solved the problem of having no hot water. So neither the manufacturer or the rental company seem particularly concerned with preventing Legionnaire's Disease. I'm the only one who has done anything to prevent it from occurring here. And speaking of bacteria and hygiene, I think it is necessary to have hot water available for cleaning to kill other bacteria besides the ones causing Legionnaire's. So for that reason alone, I do not wish to have any mixing valves installed here in the future. Anyways, you've added some important information to the thread and I hope anyone else who's not getting correct answers from their plumber or hot water rental company will find some possible solutions here. Originally Posted by doublezero CALIFORNIA PROPOSITION 65 WARNING WARNING: This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. I see you are not from Calif, so you may not be familiar with the prop 65 warning, which appears on everything! From any kind of plumbing product made of brass, to candy wrappers! But hold on to your hat, Kemosabe, because these lead laws are going national in the US , soon! I should also add the primary use of a mixing valve. 1- to act as a safety precaution against scalding in the event that a water tank would accidentally reach dangerous temperatures. 2- to allow the home owner to increase water tank temp over 60 degrees celsius which kills the legionella bacteria known as Legionella pneumophila legionary disease 3- to increase hot water temp, resulting in less hot water used in your tank, which increase the duration of hot water use and reduce utility cost. Solarchoice, Thanks, but I removed the mixing valve and successfully soldered the pipes back together in the correct way back in January. Since then, I have been happy with the hot water temperature in here. There have been no problems with it and the chances are good that there won't be unless I install another mixing valve. Put a meat thermometer under the kitchen / bath hot water tap and note the temp. In my case it approx 110 , was just below 120F. Check the label on the temp control valve and note the rotation which provides warmer water , ( a red arrow). Remove the center of the label from the temperature control valve , and remove the star screw. Remove the plastic control knob. With a suitable wrench , Relax - adjust the outer nut by approx 1/4 turn . Put the Plastic knob back on aligning the inner slot with the metal tab as before. Twist with you fingers until the knob rotaes (dragging the inner metal tab with it) . Use the meat thermometer in the kitchen faucet again . If the water temp improves to 120 , perhaps 123 . Put the screw back in place and be happy. If there is no change to measured temperature, check the water temperature directly in the tank. The method may require tapping the valve with a small screw driver handle to remove lime deposits. Also keep in mind that the control valve should be mounted 1 foot below the hot water tank outlet per http://www.watts.com/pdf/1915905.pdf I recently moved into new construction with a mixing valve that only allows 120F out, nowhere near hot enough for us. Since it mixes a lot of cold water with a small amount of hot water I reversed the hot and cold sides of the valve. I removed the valve, flipped it over, and reinstalled with inlets reversed. Now the output is nice and hot. Originally Posted by DesertRatR I recently moved into new construction with a mixing valve that only allows 120F out, nowhere near hot enough for us. Since it mixes a lot of cold water with a small amount of hot water I reversed the hot and cold sides of the valve. I removed the valve, flipped it over, and reinstalled with inlets reversed. Now the output is nice and hot. Took your advice and flipped the mixing valve, worked like a charm. Finally have hot water at my taps! Thanks! If 120 isn't hot enough..other issues should be addressed. Reversing a CORRECTLY installed and CORRECTLY operating component of a plumbing system is defeating the purpose. This thread is the first result from googling removing mixing valve so I guess it is a common problem for quite some people. Thanks DesertRatR for the hint and I will try it first thing tonight when I get home. I went to a homedepot this morning before work to try get a replacement for the valve but it ran out stock and I was pointed to a far way store since the ones around ran out that thing as well. I read through and quite confused over the part of the valve would help get rid of the Legionnaire's Disease. To my knowledge, the valve is mixing cold water with the boiled water to reduce the temp. The water in the tank might be with no bacterial, but how about the cold water which will be mixed together? Doing a search for Legionnaire's Disease and water heaters will bring up a lot of info....some simple and some more complex. Basically the WH set at a lower temp provides ideal conditions. Q. What water conditions are best for growth of the organism? A. Warm, stagnant water provides ideal conditions for growth. At temperatures between 20°C-50°C (68°-122°F) the organism can multiply. Temperatures of 32°C-40°C (90°-105°F) are ideal for growth. Rust (iron), scale, and the presence of other microorganisms can also promote the growth of LDB. From here... Legionnaires' Disease eTool: Facts and FAQs Thx Gungus45. I am more clear on that part now. The high temp in the tank is to prevent that kinda bacterial grows under the ideal temperature if there is any from the fresh cold water. An update. Last week I did the cold/hot swap (courtesy of DesertRatR) and I got back the hot water with normal pressure. I could even do the temp fine tune like the regular one which hot hot water in the tank and less hot water out of the valve. I guessed the hot water side might be not sensitive enough or clogged by mineral already. Hopefully next time I did the swap again the original hot entry's clogging would be washed out by the cold water already.
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